tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post1107648553177640574..comments2023-10-18T08:32:17.510-07:00Comments on Kevin Hillstrom: MineThatData: E-Mail: This Isn't HardUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post-46030095069842452852010-11-09T16:05:02.790-08:002010-11-09T16:05:02.790-08:00I think that's reasonable for lead generation ...I think that's reasonable for lead generation marketers --- though that's not my field of expertise, I'm an e-commerce, retail, and catalog person.<br /><br />In my world, measuring via mail/holdout groups yields more accurate results than open/click/convert. Some who have left comments differ, and that's fine, they may have different experiences than I have had that validate their point of view. I've done hundreds of mail/holdout tests, the results in my field are more interesting, and lead to a better measure of profit, especially when the holdouts are done over a month or a quarter.MineThatDatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14014200122021988374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post-20789001451203352392010-11-09T11:31:36.804-08:002010-11-09T11:31:36.804-08:00I wholeheartedly agree marketers over-analyze some...I wholeheartedly agree marketers over-analyze something that should be as simple as "did your audience come back and buy from you?" Open rate / click-through / conversion is supposed to measure the effectiveness of different messaging approaches week to week, but instead it's used to measure the effectiveness of the entire email marketing branch - as in "how did emails do this week?"<br /><br />Here's a thought: lead generation marketers rarely deal with return visitors, so "lift" just means "how effective this week's campaign was at roping in new visitors versus last week's campaign." I'm curious to hear someone's take on that.Peterhttp://peterkimmich.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post-91402837824784398892010-11-08T14:45:15.692-08:002010-11-08T14:45:15.692-08:00Agree the measured sales lift is the most importan...Agree the measured sales lift is the most important metric but do not understand why open and click are "fraudulent" ... are you saying they are not as important or technically wrong ... if contaminated ... with what?petenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post-1292253458710377962010-11-05T07:03:40.749-07:002010-11-05T07:03:40.749-07:00Hi Trey, I had a chance to review your comment and...Hi Trey, I had a chance to review your comment and the blog post you wrote in response. Thank you for your feedback, good luck moving forward.MineThatDatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14014200122021988374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post-61395254607370590392010-11-04T22:28:58.961-07:002010-11-04T22:28:58.961-07:00This is ridiculous and offensive to your fellow ma...This is ridiculous and offensive to your fellow marketers.<br /><br />Given what you've said here, I have to question your understanding of marketing in general and email marketing in particular.Trey Pedenhttp://treygivens.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post-43087661576817343802010-11-03T13:10:25.278-07:002010-11-03T13:10:25.278-07:00What Rich said!What Rich said!MineThatDatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14014200122021988374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post-9546154597003168992010-11-03T04:32:53.089-07:002010-11-03T04:32:53.089-07:00I think we're all guilty of over complicating ...I think we're all guilty of over complicating stuff. I suppose at the end of the day it's as simple as sales in and money made from each offer.richhttp://www.wonderwebmarketing.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post-1267728329474228792010-11-02T11:25:10.484-07:002010-11-02T11:25:10.484-07:00@Chris - I wouldn't disagree with your points ...@Chris - I wouldn't disagree with your points about brochureware sites but to my mind the very definition of an Internet Entrepreneur is direct online sales; that's what makes it an Internet Retail operation. <br /><br />No doubt that great no strings attached content like newsletters is spectacular but the type of analysis suggested here by Kevin really is only applicable to Internet retailers. That being said, I know that my company site is surely brochureware, feel free to sign up for my no strings attached high quality newsletter Web Enlightenment. :-) <br /><br />You are preaching to the choir on best practices for services sites like yours and mine, but I think any conversation about lift calculation inherently includes a direct sale. <br /><br />On a separate but related topic I've been thinking about whether or not firms would respond to bribery – aka if I pay you this cash over here will you perform some real tests that include do not email, do not mail groups? I know, this is a wrongheaded idea and I'd never do it but it is tempting some days.Ross Lasleyhttp://www.theinterneteducator.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post-83747117451838348842010-11-02T09:57:21.923-07:002010-11-02T09:57:21.923-07:00You are right-on with the comments, though in my e...You are right-on with the comments, though in my experience working data mining/predictive analytics projects for marketing, no one dares to do it (no mailing to "good" prospects is considered a "loser"). <br /><br />In the Predictive Analytics community, assessing data in this way is called "uplift modeling" (like here http://www.predictiveanalyticsworld.com/london/2010/agenda.php#day1-16 and here http://jtonedm.com/2009/02/19/5-ways-to-reduce-cost-with-predictive-analytics/)Dean Abbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16818000233889520746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post-31429398765053476012010-11-02T09:48:47.165-07:002010-11-02T09:48:47.165-07:00E-mail marketers, the real question I'm asking...E-mail marketers, the real question I'm asking is why don't folks execute the test illustrated in this post and measure via lift?<br /><br />That question seems to be dodged by folks.MineThatDatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14014200122021988374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post-53546009564996533222010-11-02T09:43:10.341-07:002010-11-02T09:43:10.341-07:00@Ross: Engagement is absolutely a valid goal for m...@Ross: Engagement is absolutely a valid goal for many non e-commerce websites.<br /><br />Only a tiny tiny percentage of visitors are prepared to buy from you, especially if you're offering expensive services. Sure, you can build your website to try to funnel people to a buy now form, but you're not going to get many responses.<br /><br />I think it's much better to provide content that your potential customers are interested in, engage them, prove your expertise, and make them happy. Then, when they're ready to buy what you provide, who do you think they'll seek out? Will it be the company with the hard sell approach, or the one that they've already had a positive experience with?<br /><br />That's why engagement is a valid goal in my opinion. Now, if you're selling products directly through ecommerce, I think an actual sale should be your primary conversion goal.Chrishttp://www.studio625.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post-77888712903449432922010-11-02T08:50:37.235-07:002010-11-02T08:50:37.235-07:00Contaminated is a good way to describe what happen...Contaminated is a good way to describe what happened!MineThatDatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14014200122021988374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32202893.post-61031576267205130762010-11-02T07:29:54.418-07:002010-11-02T07:29:54.418-07:00Kevin,
Love your stuff as usual and the points yo...Kevin,<br /><br />Love your stuff as usual and the points you make are right on. I do feel obligated to defend my kind (web guys) and say that 'conversion rate' used to - by definition - mean there was a sale and money in your pocket. I'd agree that today it is has become contaminated by stupidity and weird ideas about engagement and silly stuff like that there. I liked the world a bit better when conversion rate commonly meant a documented sale and nothing else. <br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />RossRoss Lasleyhttp://wwww.theinterneteducator.comnoreply@blogger.com